no offence taken mike... don't worry, the debate is genuine and a good one.

you are right we offer a helping hand and take a step forward, whilst causing the problem in the first place by taking three steps backwards. but it is not bad to try and help those who are suffering now rather than always be waiting for the miraculous revolution, which probably wont come before we implode anyway. I do think we can work on both projects at once, working to overthrow the evil empire, whilst being nice and helping where you can along the way. we must not be naive indeed, but neither must we be paralysed by cynicism.

the 10 to 15 years information applies to legals as not much is, or can be known exactly about illegals. It is recieved wisdom in migration studies circles but applies to the US in the twentieth century. recent studies have contradicted this, as family reunification has become more prevalent than work migration and families aren't good for economic statistics. Immigrants (legal) also apparently contribute more in taxes than they claim in social security, although this too may be changed by family reunification... see my essay on the inquiry

the illegals point is certainly true: “those who own capital can make a living by using that capital almost anywhere in the world; however, those who do not own capital must make a living by selling their labour power ... only in ‘their’ country” (Fielding, 1993:41, cited in Black 1996:72).