re: Kagan and 'You'd all eat shit wouldn't you?' - they do eat it. Shit-eater review, Hobbes and Kant definitely impressed him

You can see though, how Hobbes can be so drastically abused, in fact terribly contradicted. I think seeing this distinction doesn't ever require close reading of the Leviathan per se - any secondary literature will demonstrate this fact adequately.

"Kagan's intellectual framework may seem rather unsophisticated, but it does boast a philosophical foundation. Its premise is that a domestic realm built along liberal lines, where force and fraud are repressed and the rule of law prevails, can be stabilized and defended only by a vigorous foreign policy -- where force and even fraud are deployed ruthlessly against unscrupulous adversaries and where laws are respected only when convenient. Kantian dreamers of peace and reason may not know it, but their hyperliberal utopia always depends on a Hobbesian willingness to apply organized violence, without regard to rules, to fend off barbarians at the gate. It is naive to believe that a dangerously turbulent world can be managed by United Nations resolutions, foreign aid, diplomatic negotiations and a deepening of commercial ties."

OK - enough Kagan ripping now - it's not worth it. This whole scenario might be useful for later work though.

Oh yes... Policy Review is loving it